18 April 2008

Justifying the Raid on the FLDS

More on the practice I could never afford here

Coming of age during the Clinton administration instilled in me a healthy fear of the US Government using heavy-handed tactics (I understand the irony that I'm now in the military...thanks). The gestapo-like tactics and incendiary rounds used by the ATF to take out the Branch Davidians in Waco 1993, Randy Weaver's wife getting shot at Ruby Ridge, the whole Elian Gonzalez fiasco, etc. So I expressed a lot of the same anxieties as Pat Dollard did when this whole raid on the Polygamist FLDS compound was shaping up. But instead of churning up a plot with my separatist militia group, I decided to read a little bit more about it!

I would be hard-pressed to justify a military-style raid against someone for their choice of lifestyle. Even if that involves living in a compound and dressing like the characters from The Handmaiden's Tale. But Orcinus points out that clearly these women are being coerced, and their testimony and interview on Fox/CNN gives a stark sense of brainwashed abuse that any freshman Psych major could point out. There's a website dedicated to exposing the criminality of this cult called Help The Child Brides, which is worth a visit. There's personal stories of Khmer Rouge style "re-education" if any of the women act up, and a sad story of a 14 year-old girl that was married off to her step-brother. Watching the interviews reminded me of stories my aunt, who's a cop, used to tell me. She said she frequently responds to domestic abuse cases (usually phoned in by the neighbor), and sometimes the battered woman will come to the door and make excuses for her drunken, criminal of a husband. It's a phenomenon I just don't understand. That's the same impression I got from these interviews with the women of the FLDS. So are the raids justified, yeah, probably. It's upholding the law, and committing abuse isn't exactly a viable choice of a lifestyle, since it harms someone else. Any libertarian would agree with me.

Creepy Shit

Just to prove I was watching CNN, here's a commercial geared towards it's aging demographic


April said...

I'm all about "live and let live." But forcing 14-and 15-year-olds to marry, and immediately consummate that marriage, is not justifiable as a cultural ok. It's so...islamic.

14- and 15-year old girls want to have sex. But not with creepy older men who force them to.

Kyle said...

I believe those men that are controlling that compound are quite sick and need to be "removed from power". There is no place in these United States for that kind of abuse and totalitarian power they hold over these women. What I find extremely disturbing is the number of cases of flat out child abuse and pedophilia. They are simply disgusting human beings.

Anonymous said...

That Marleigh Meisner looks like a total w*h*o*r*e. I'll bet she has at least four tattoos. I'd guess she probably has w***ed around with at least 84 different men.

Only a slut would want those kids taken from their wonderful families. I am praying that she comes down with brain cancer--several large tumors. I would enjoy a youtube video showing her diseased body flopping around on a hospital bed.

The patriots who are standing up for these kids and the constitution need to get together and form an organization to resist this and other atrocities by the government and their henchmen.

Further, all baptist churchs should be picketed on sunday to protest the invovlement of the el dorado baptist church in assisting the pigs, providing buses and acting as collaborators. this is a huge problem.

Anonymous said...

You sure are attracting some interesting commentators these days (present company excluded of course)

LT Nixon said...


Yeah, it's pretty creepy.


Uh, okay.


That's the best part of the internets! It's total sewer-like atmosphere.

Grung_e_Gene said...

To anyone focusing on the *evils* of this government raid, I can not believe you can excuse the enforced slavery of young children. Protecting or at least trying to protect children has been about the only good thing government has ever gotten itself involved with.

These young girls all minors and some according to legal definition in infancy (under 12) have been coerced, brainwashed and forced into a life of sexual servitude.

Anyone defending the actions of the men as "patriotic" needs to evaluate their thinking process.

Bag Blog said...

“Coercion” is such a touchy word when it comes to religion. What each of us thinks is "normal" in our homes may not be normal to someone else. Personally, I don’t think same sex marriages is a good idea and the thought of gay couples adopting children or having children and raising them to think that that lifestyle is normal is just wrong to me, but other people accept this as “normal” - I think someone has been brainwashed.

You mention your aunt going to homes where domestic disputes are going on, yet the wives make excuses for their husbands. Tell me, did the police go ahead and break down the door and arrest the husband, or take the wives to a holding area or remove the children to foster care? Probably not – because we have laws protecting us from such stuff – but not so with El Dorado. I think without the alleged 16 year old who made the call, the El Dorado case is questionable. Sure there are cases where there was proven abuse, but it has not been proven in El Dorado - yet. Do you think that those people invited the police in and then said, "Here is were we rape young under-aged girls. And here is the women who were forced to marry when they did not want to. You need to arrest us now." Where is the news getting their info? All is questionable at this point.

Sorry about the rant, but I homeschooled my children at a time when lots of people HATED and distrusted homeschooling. I'm a bit weird when it comes to what is my rights as a parent.

LT Nixon said...

Bag Blog,

Well I think there is a serious distinction between homeschooling and child-abuse. I think homeschooling is good too, but that's just because I'm no fan of public schooling. I don't think raids are justified for someone being "different" or "weird", but if there is suspicion of abuse of children, it should be promptly investigated. My views are pretty much in-line with Gene's.


Good comment, I agree.

Bag Blog said...

When I was homeschooling there were police and social service people raiding homes. Children were removed, parents were being accused of abuse and neglect. Parents had to fight for their children, but who would believe a child when he said he was not being abused. Home School Legal Defense Association was set up to protect homeschoolers and change laws - it was a scary time - all because we were different. So far, nothing has been proved at El Dorado except fear of the unknown.

Anonymous said...

You should all be thankful that Janet Reno wasn't the Attorney General of the United States!

Lt., as always, come home safe to us.

509th Bob

Anonymous said...

Surprised to read you were actually listening to those stories. Take care, stay safe.

Caroline said...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Our society has become so litigious that people are scared to raise their eyebrows at anything. If there is child abuse of any kind wouldn't you rather error on the side of caution. Do you really think that if nothing was going on that those 500 lawyers wouldn't be shouting at the top of their lungs to reunite these families? There are hundreds of groups around this country that choose to live separate from society, but for some reason the FBI and ATF only choose to raid ones that are stock piling arms or marrying preteens so I'm ok with the "government's henchmen" out there handling business.

Anonymous- Feel free to protest at my church, Park Cities Baptist this Sunday, services start at 9:20. May I make a suggestion, don't just picket, be a little more creative; since we are southern baptists possibly make up an interpretative dance?...Just throwing out suggestions.

Kyle said...

Bag Blog:

Yes youre right, nothing has been proven yet at El Dorado, except for many extremely underage girls (not even women) that have either several children, or are pregnant, or are married to men much, much older than them.

I dont know what your beliefs are, but for me, that is enough to go i and save those girls.

LT Nixon said...


Did anyone show up? The only church I would protest is the Westboro Baptist Church. Those guys are definitely not "Teh Awesome".

Skybag said...

Kyle, you can go into any high school in this United States and find that many underaged pregnant girls. No one takes them away from their families although it could be argued that something was wrong. No one gets arrested although there was probably some coercion somewhere. Everyone just thinks that is "normal behavior."

Caroline, it is okay for the government's henchmen to come in and separate families - as long as it is not your family. At least that is the way people felt back in Hilter's day.

Caroline said...

Lt- I'll let you know

Skybag- If I was a 16 year old married to a man old enough to be my father with 3 children; I think even if I didn't understand it at the time, a day would come when I would thank people for intervening.

LT Nixon said...


Here you go. Apparently a superdelegate phoned in a bogus tip to the authorities about the FLDS. This story gets stranger by the minute.

Kyle said...


Yes you indeed can find underage pregnant girls is high schools around the country. However, I am willing to be that almost all, if not all are pregnant from males at least near their age, if not the same age. They most certainly not having sex with 30, 40, 50, or 60 year old men on their own free will.

Caroline said...

Lt - No Protests this morning...I was a little sad, I was really hoping for some dancing picket lines!

Bag Blog said...

Kyle, Why do you think it was "against their will"? Personally, I don't like either situation, but I do think it odd that we, as a society, only bother with situations we find distasteful - like older men with young women. You could look at it differently - older men marry, protect and support the young women in question. Pregnant underaged girls in "normal society" usually have none of those things - but that is okay?